Then venerable Subhūti asked the Lord, “Lord, if the sameness of all dharmas is empty of a basic nature, then no dharma does anything, so how, while dharmas are not doing anything and are not anything at all, do bodhisattva great beings practicing the perfection of wisdom not move from the ultimate but still work for the welfare of beings by way of giving gifts, kind words, beneficial actions, and consistency between words and deeds?”

Venerable Subhūti having asked that, the Lord said to him, “Exactly so, Subhūti, exactly so! It is exactly as you say! Subhūti, emptiness does not do anything that has to be done or that does not have to be done; there is nothing at all. Yet, Subhūti, were these beings to understand this by themselves, in that case the Tathāgata would not, without moving from the ultimate, cause the separation of beings from the perception of self, and having separated them, free them from saṃsāra with emptiness, or similarly, cause the separation of beings from the perception of a being, up to the perception of one who does; the notion of form, up to the perception of consciousness; the perception of eyes, up to the perception of thinking mind; the perception of the earth element, up to the perception of the consciousness element; the perception of compounded element, and having separated them, establish them in the uncompounded element of emptiness.”

“Lord, of what is emptiness empty?”

“Subhūti, whatever the perception of it, it is empty of that. Subhūti, when one magical creation has created another magical creation, is there any real thing there that is not empty?”

“No, Lord. In a magical creation something real that is not emptiness does not exist. That which is the emptiness and that which is the magical creation are not joined and not disjoined—both those dharmas are empty of emptiness.”

“Subhūti, what do you think, is there a contortion into ‘this is a magical creation; this is an emptiness’?”

“No, Lord. And why? Because in emptiness, those dharmas ‘this is a magical creation’ and ‘this is an emptiness’ are not two.”

“Subhūti, there is no form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional factors, or consciousness that is not a magical creation, and whatever is a magical creation is an emptiness,”

The Lord having said that, venerable Subhūti then asked him, “Lord, if those ordinary dharmas are magical creations, are these extraordinary dharmas—namely, the four applications of mindfulness, four right efforts, four legs of miraculous power, five faculties, five powers, seven limbs of awakening, and eightfold noble path; and the ten tathāgata powers, four fearlessnesses, four detailed and thorough knowledges, and eighteen distinct attributes of a buddha—also magical creations? And their results, whatever they are, and those persons that appear on account of them—the stream enterer, once-returner, non-returner, worthy one, pratyekabuddha, bodhisattva, and tathāgata, worthy one, perfectly complete buddha—are those dharmas magical creations as well?”

Venerable Subhūti having asked that, the Lord said to him, “Subhūti, there where all dharmas are thus magical creations, some are magically created by śrāvakas, some are magically created by pratyekabuddhas, some are magically created by bodhisattvas, some are magically created by tathāgatas, some are magically created by afflictive emotions, and some are magically created by actions, so in that way all dharmas are like a magical creation.”

“Lord, are this ‘abandonment,’ and those other dharmas—the result of stream enterer, result of once-returner, result of non-returner, and state of a worthy one—also magical creations? And are those other dharmas—the pratyekabuddha level, the buddha level, and the elimination of all residual impressions, connections, and afflictions—also magical creations?”

“Subhūti, whatever the dharma, be it a production or cessation, it is a magical creation.”

“Lord, what is the dharma that is not a magical creation?”

“Subhūti, that which has no production and no cessation is not a magical creation.”

“And what, Lord, is that?”

“It is nirvāṇa—that which has the quality of not coaxing you into believing it is true. Those dharmas are not a magical creation.”

“Lord, according to what you have said, Lord, that ‘not moving from emptiness and not stained by duality either there is no dharma at all that is not emptiness,’ then even that which has the dharma of not coaxing you into believing it is true, nirvāṇa, is magically created.”

“Exactly so, Subhūti, exactly so! Subhūti, all dharmas are empty of an intrinsic nature. They have not been made by śrāvakas, have not been made by pratyekabuddhas, have not been made by bodhisattva great beings, and have not been made by tathāgatas, worthy ones, perfectly complete buddhas. That which is empty of an intrinsic nature is nirvāṇa.”

The Lord having said that, venerable Subhūti asked him, “Lord, if a person who is beginning the work is going to understand the emptiness of an intrinsic nature, how should they be advised and instructed?”

“Subhūti, does a thing that really existed before become a thing that does not exist later? Subhūti, here there is no existent thing, nor a nonexistent thing, and there is not something’s own existence, nor any existence from something else, so how will there ever be anything called ‘emptiness of an intrinsic nature’ that has to be understood?”