Then venerable Subhūti inquired of the Lord, “Lord, if all dharmas are the nonexistence of an intrinsic nature, if they have not been made by buddhas, have not been made by pratyekabuddhas, have not been made by worthy ones, have not been made by non-returners, have not been made by once-returners, have not been made by stream enterers, and have not been made by those bodhisattva great beings who are practicing for this awakening, well then, Lord, why in these dharmas is there a distinction made between them, or a presentation of them thus: ‘These are beings in hell, these in the animal world, these in the world of Yama, these are gods, these are humans; because of this karma they are in hell, because of this in the animal world, because of this in the world of Yama, because of this they are gods, because of this humans, because of this Brahmakāyika, up to Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana gods; because of this karma they are stream enterers, up to because of this karma they are pratyekabuddhas, because of this karma they are bodhisattvas, and because of this karma they are tathāgatas, worthy ones, perfectly complete buddhas’? Lord, in a dharma that is not real there is no action such that, on account of such an action, they would go to hell, or to the animal world, or to the world of Yama, or take birth as a god or human, up to a Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana god; or reach the result of stream enterer, or reach the result of once-returner, or the result of non-returner, or the state of a worthy one, or a pratyekabuddha’s awakening; or be a bodhisattva, or practice the awakening path, or reach the knowledge of all aspects, or, having reached that, cause beings to be liberated from saṃsāra.”

Venerable Subhūti having inquired about that, the Lord said to him, “Exactly so, Subhūti, exactly so! It is exactly as you say! Subhūti, whereas in a dharma that is not real there is no karma, there is no action, and there is no result, unlettered, foolish, ordinary people uneducated about the noble dharmas do not know that dharmas are the nonexistence of an intrinsic nature, and because of thought that has arisen on account of error, accumulate a variety of karma. Certain sorts of bodies come into being because of that: the bodies of beings in hell, or in the animal world, or in the world of Yama, or of gods, or of humans, up to of the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana gods come into being. In a dharma that is not real there is no action, there is nothing being done, and there is no result—that which is not real is just not real.

“Again, Subhūti, in regard to what you have said—in a dharma that is not real there is no action such that, on account of such an action, they would reach…, up to the result of stream enterer, or reach…, up to the state of a worthy one, or a pratyekabuddha’s awakening; or be a bodhisattva great being practicing the knowledge of path aspects, or reach the knowledge of all aspects of a tathāgata, worthy one, perfectly complete buddha, or, having reached that, cause beings to be liberated from saṃsāra—Subhūti, what do you think, is the path not a nonexistent thing, or is the result of stream enterer not a nonexistent thing, or is the result of once-returner not a nonexistent thing, or is the result of non-returner not a nonexistent thing, or is the state of a worthy one not a nonexistent thing, or is a pratyekabuddha’s awakening not a nonexistent thing, or is the knowledge of path aspects not a nonexistent thing, up to or is the knowledge of all aspects not a nonexistent thing?”

“Lord, the path is a nonexistent thing…, up to the knowledge of all aspects are nonexistent things.”

“Subhūti, well then, does a nonexistent phenomenon reach a nonexistent phenomenon?”

“No, Lord.”

“So then, Subhūti, that which is a nonexistent thing and that which is the path, both of those phenomena are neither conjoined with nor disjoined from anything, are formless, do not show themselves, are not obstructed, and have only one mark—that is, no mark. Therefore, Subhūti, bodhisattva great beings practicing the perfection of wisdom with skillful means dissuade beings who settle down on the aggregates, who settle down on an existent thing because of four errors—the perception of impermanence as permanence, the perception of suffering as happiness, the perception of the selfless as self, and the perception of the unclean as clean—from believing in an existent thing.”

The Lord having said that, venerable Subhūti asked him, “Lord, is there some real basis called suchness and unmistaken suchness, that was or is, that foolish, ordinary people stand on and settle down on as ‘a real basis’; and if there is not, how do they accumulate karma, the type of karma on account of which they are not freed from the five forms of life in saṃsāra?”

“Subhūti, no real basis at all has been set down, other than in error, where foolish ordinary persons stand and accumulate karma, not even as much as a part of the tip of a strand of hair. Therefore, Subhūti, to the extent possible I will explain this to you with an illustration in order to cover just this topic in more detail for the intelligent to understand.

“What do you think, Subhūti, when somebody dreaming a dream experiences a sense of gratification through the five sorts of sense objects, is there any corresponding real basis for the dreamer of the dream?”

“Lord, if even just the dream is not there, how could there ever be a real basis where the dreamer of the dream stands and experiences a sense of gratification through the five sorts of sense objects?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, are there any compounded or uncompounded dharmas, with outflows or without outflows, that are not like a dream?”

“Lord, there are not any compounded or uncompounded dharmas, with outflows or without outflows, that are not like a dream.”

“What do you think, Subhūti, in a dream are there the five forms of life in saṃsāra?”

“No, Lord.”

“What do you think, Subhūti, in a dream is there any meditation on a path thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord. Lord, that dharma is without a real basis, has no designation, and is not something designated by any utterances, stems, or inflected words.”

The Lord then asked, “What do you think, Subhūti, is there any karma accumulated by the reflection seen on the surface of a mirror, on account of which it will become a being in hell, or in the animal world, or in the world of Yama, or a god, or a human?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if that reflection itself, other than coaxing foolish ordinary persons into believing it is true, has no real basis, how could it ever have accumulated any karma, on account of which it becomes a being in hell, or in the animal world, or in the world of Yama, or a god, or a human?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, is there any meditation on a path there, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if even just that reflection has no real basis, how could there be a meditation on a path there, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, is there any karma accumulated by an echo echoing in a river valley, a verdant valley in the foothills, a dense jungle, or a mountain retreat, or from a crevice in a cliff, on account of which it becomes a being in hell, or in the animal world, or in the world of Yama, or a god, or a human, or a god living in the desire realm, or a god living in the form realm, up to or a god in the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if even that echo itself has no real basis, how could it ever have accumulated any karma, on account of which it becomes a being in hell, or in the animal world, or in the world of Yama, or a god, or a human, or a god living in the desire realm, or a god living in the form realm, up to or a god in the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, is there any meditation on a path in that echo, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if even just that echo is absolutely not there, how could there be any meditation on a path there, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, is there any karma accumulated by the perception of water in a mirage where there is no water, by the perception of a river where there is no river, by the perception of a city where there is no city, or by the perception of a park where there is no park, on account of which it goes to hell, up to or goes to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“No, Lord. Lord, when, other than being an error of perception, a state of visual delusion, there is absolutely no water in that mirage, there is no river, no city, and no park, how could it ever have accumulated any karma on account of which it goes to hell, up to or goes to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, is there any meditation on a path in that error of perception, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if even just that error of perception is absolutely not there, how could there be a meditation on a path there, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, when a magician conjures up a variety of magical creations—conjures up a collection of elephants, or a collection of horses, or a collection of bulls, or a collection of foot soldiers, or a collection of chariots, or a woman’s body, or a man’s body—is there any karma accumulated in those magical creations, on account of which they would go to hell, up to or go to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“No, Lord. Lord, when those magical creations have no real basis at all set down where they might stand and accumulate karma, not even as much as a part of the tip of a strand of hair, how could they ever have accumulated any karma, on account of which they would go to hell, up to or go to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, in those magical creations is there any meditation on a path, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord. Lord, if even just those creations themselves are absolutely not there, how could there be any meditation on a path there, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, when a tathāgata’s magical creation magically creates another magical creation, is there any karma accumulated in that magical creation, on account of which it would go to hell, up to or go to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“No, Lord. Lord, when that magical creation itself has no real basis, how could it ever have accumulated any karma, on account of which it would go to hell, up to or go to the Naiva­saṃjñā­nāsaṃjñāyatana?”

“What do you think, Subhūti, in that magical creation is there any meditation on a path, thanks to which there would be no defilement and there would also be no purification?”

“No, Lord.”

“Subhūti, is there any defilement or purification happening there?”

“None at all, Lord,”

“Subhūti, just as there is no defilement happening at all and just as there is no purification happening at all there, similarly there is no defilement or purification. And why? Because defilement happens and purification happens to those beings who live grasping at ‘I’ and grasping at ‘mine,’ but for those with perfect vision, defilement does not happen and purification does not happen. And just as those with perfect vision do not become defiled and do not become purified, similarly there is no defilement or purification.”